TF's and Philosophy--Chapter 7 Discussion Guide

[Coraxonyx]

((I didn't forget about this project, honest, I've just been UBER busy and this is a chapter I was particularly interested in discussing, so PLEASE post your thoughts!))

Transformers and Philosophy Discussion Guide: Chapter Seven

Chapter title: Will We Meet Optimus Prime in Heaven?
Chapter author: M. R. Eyestone

Brief Synopsis: An examination of the philosophical and ethical "conditions" to be met for humans to encounter a being like Optimus Prime in the virtuous afterlife.

Major Concepts:

We'll start with the conditions as put forth by Eyestone. In order for a human to encounter Optimus Prime in heaven, Prime must be:

1. Alive
2. Possessed of a soul
3. Capable of death
4. Morally good

I'll speed through points one and two as it's ground we've covered in other chapters. Eyestone does a good job with his sources, focusing primarily on the G1 cartoon, and (refreshingly) the Marvel G1 comics for his material. He does a little bit of textual analysis, going beyond the basic assertion in the narration that Transformers are "alive" to examine what that means in terms of characterization ie. they have emotion, can think, can feel pain, etc. He also examines the Transformers' self identification as alive in several instances when they are confronted with non-living human made vehicles.

The issue of the soul brings us back again to Aristotle and the concept of the psyche or "animating force" that is in all creation. Eyestone chooses to limit our discussion from the animist beliefs of the Ancient Greeks to restrict the possibility of souls only to those beings which also possess life. In his definition a "soul" is whatever it is in a living being that makes it LIVING.

He returns again to Aristotle to discuss the qualities of life and revisit the idea of FORM as the blueprint for what a living being can become. He also gives us a handy list of qualities that constitute a living being. The nutritive, perceptual and intellectual faculties are possessed by all living beings. Transformers do fine with perception and intellect, but a serious problem crops up when we consider the nutritive faculty, this is the being's ability to take in and process food and thereby GROW. The nutritive faculty also encompasses reproduction and as a strictly G1 sourced essay, this presents us with another problem.

The problem: Transformers don't grow. (In G1)

Because Transformers are created from parts and activated as "adult" beings they do not undergo the period of growth and development that is an essential part of being alive. However, there are examples of biological creatures that produce cloned offspring that are essentially adult copies, and we consider them to be alive. Also, there are examples in the fiction of the intellectual and (most importantly) MORAL development of newly created Transformers. Both the Dinobots and Arielbots begin as callow, somewhat selfish and self-centered beings who must learn about the value of their cause and the true evil and danger that the Decepticons represent. While this is not physical, it is a type of growth. Eyestone also calls for a limit to skepticism in this intellectual exercise, as we must accept the other strong evidence of Transformers being living beings, we should allow that their method of reproduction, although it seems unnnatural to us, must indeed produce living offspring.

Death:

In the next section, Eyestone examines the attitudes and beliefs about death in G1 Transformers fiction. He draws some very interesting examples from Megatron and Optimus Prime in TF:TM, contrasting Megatron's pleas for his life with Prime's serene acceptance of death. He also points out that Transformers do recognize a distinction between true death and severe, but recoverable, damage. This gives us our third qualification for "Heaven".

Virtue:

In the final section, Eyestone discusses the concept of virtue in both the moral and classical sense. After a brief discussion of the importance of free will in the assessment of virtue (someone who is "programmed" to be good isn't genuinely virtuous).

He introduces the Aristotelian concept of arete (ah-ri-tay) and shows how it is distinct from our modern concept of moral virtue. Arete is an interesting theme to bring to Transformerdom, it is defined as "becoming the ideal expression of one's form/function", so not only people, but animals and things can all possess arete and function is such a critical concept in Transformers fiction.

An understanding of arete helps to explain the course of much Ancient Greek literature, for the goal of the Greek hero was not to be virtuous in the modern sense, but instead to possess arete, to be the best at whatever he does. This attitude sheds light on the actions of such complex characters as Agamemnon and Achilles and grants a fair amount of credence to the Decepticon philosopy of individual strength. Megatron himself has admirable qualities as a warlord and military leader. He possesses arete. But he is not a virtuous character in any moral sense. Optimus Prime, on the other hand, possesses the qualities of excellence that embody arete, and also chooses to be a morally upright being. This combination of factors certainly should qualify him for entrance into paradise in most modern religious systems.

In conclusion:

After this interesting examination of life and morality, Eyestone falls a bit short of endorsing Prime to the Pearly Gates. He claims this is because of the uncertainty of the soul's existance beyond death, but he does determine that Prime has no WORSE of a chance to make it to heaven than any human does.

Corax's Rabid Fangirl Analysis:

Although this essay is limited a bit by being chained to G1 for its source material, it does use the sources it has very well, bringing forth interesting and cogent examples for all the topics under discussion. He also looks seriously at the characters themselves instead of using them as stand-ins for more universal or generic concepts. His examination of Megatron's fear of death is particularly interesting. I, personally, believe that his brief examples show the Decepticon leader to be a nihilist. He speaks often of obliteration or termination rather than death. I think this is because he believes that there is no afterlife, no " 'til all are one". This insight alone explains so much about his character and the Decepticon cause. Combine this nihilism with a striving for arete and you could compare Megatron with Achilles (well, you could ANYWAY, but this way would be more interesting).
The author also claims to be a fan of Optimus Prime, and that earns him brownie points with me.

Points for Discussion:

--Regardless of where you stand on the sparkling idea, how do you feel about the idea of Transformers having "mental" ages? It's a popular concept in the fandom, but personally, I think everyone gets pitched WAY too young. What do you think?

--Does Megatron fear death? Why or why not? Compare him to Achilles for extra points.

--Since Eyestone wimps out on it, give us your opinion. Will we see Optimus Prime in heaven? Or more fully, does the Allspark intersect or correspond at all with a human afterlife? Is it like Narnia and you can earn your way in? What do you think?

[Ridel]

This one’s a toughie, again because of my own religious beliefs. But without going into all of that, I’ll try to give my own thoughts as best I can.

1: Mental ages.

In Regular G1 verse I tend to believe they have mental ages. They were not created with infant bodies. Their growth came through experience.
Though they are all incomprehensibly old from our point of view, some act quite young while others seem much older. (Take Hotrod and Kup as an example)

Frankly, the transformers age has always been a problem for me. Optimus Prime is over nine million years old. None of us knows how a nine million year old acts. (Especially if they’ve spent much of their life fighting a gruesome war.) It’s hard to believe that we’d get G1 Prime out of that equation. (Apparently you get to a point where calling someone a mega turkey is really funny again.)

2: Does Megatron fear death? Y/N

It all depends. In my own mind I can’t help but think of Megatron as one who does not seriously believe in an afterlife. I see him as being more concerned with what he can get out of this one.

We often hear the Autobots talking about the Matrix. Saying “till all are one” and all that Jazz. But it does not seem to be much of a theme among the Decepticons. There were a few halfhearted efforts to grab the Matrix and use it as a weapon in season three, but there was nothing particularly reverential in that.

So does he fear death? Probably a bit. But he's not exactly worried about Hellfire or anything of that nature.

I’m afraid I can’t compare him to Achilies because I never read the actual myth. All I know is that he was some dude that was invincible all over except for his ankle. So of course he was arrowed in it. (Kind of like Baulder, only not adored by all creation.) Obviously further research must be done. XP

3: Heaven get? Y/N

I don’t know. I suppose it would depend on whether there is one god and one heaven, or several different ones. (From a philosophical stand point I mean. I’m rather firm in what I believe.)

It might be kind of shocking of you were a Primus fearing Autobot who died and found yourself faced with Saint Peter and the pearly gates. No Matrixy nirvana at all!

On the other hand, if you were a good Christian man who died and suddenly found yourself in Transformer heaven, it would probably throw you off a bit too.

Of course, I have no idea what the Matrix/Allspark is actually supposed to be like. As far as I can tell it’s this place where extinguished Sparks go to float around until they are reborn. Maybe. Who knows what they do while they're waiting. (But I expect they have a cribbage night)

I don’t think this theory requires you to be a morally upright being though. It just requires you to be.

Perhaps only Transformers go to the well of all sparks. Or perhaps, everyone does. From Humans to Nebulons to Quintasons.
I dunno. If someone has a clearer explanation please feel free to set me straight here.

[Coraxonyx]

Thanks for your thoughtful replies Ridel!

I love the idea of nine million years being enough time for childish insults to become the height of wit again. Those Decepticlowns never saw it coming!

As for the Megs/Death thing. I think I'm with you. The Decepticon philosophy must be built upon the idea that there is no judgement after death and the only rewards in the universe are the ones you can grab in this lifetime. The whole Allspark concept, even the Matrix and Primus are things that were added to the fiction by later authors. I'm interested to know why Furman and others felt the need for a cosmology and if the addition of all that is what helped the franchise last as long as it did.

I think that uncertainty about what qualifies a TF for the Allspark is one of the most interesting things about TF cosmology. If everyone gets in, then why bother being good? Or perhaps there is something about the Decepticon approach that is important for Cybertronians. I'd love to hear a Decepticon's take on it, but most of our understanding of that kind of thing comes from the Autobot side.

[Ridel]

Originally Posted by Coraxonyx

The whole Allspark concept, even the Matrix and Primus are things that were added to the fiction by later authors. I'm interested to know why Furman and others felt the need for a cosmology and if the addition of all that is what helped the franchise last as long as it did.

I think it might have been one of the things.
After all, every kid who watched G1 when it was on in the 80's and early 90's is an adult now, And as we grow older we become more interested in that sort of thing.
It's probably just one of the ways that fans helped the franchise to grow along with them.
Most kids don't want to sit around and discuss the philosophical and religious conundrums of their favorite Saturday morning cartoon characters. They'd rather see them clown around and sometimes punch each other.
As adults (Who cling to a cartoon show regardless, XD) discussing that sort of thing gives the whole story a depth that captures and holds our imagination.

The same could be said about politics.
As an adult, I am really interested in the political evolution that Cybertron went through before, during and after the war. Also how other planets and people would view the Cybertronians.
Would any pursue trade relations with either of the factions? Would they be outcasts for bringing their war everywhere they go? And if so, what impact did establishing peaceful relations with Earth have on them?

As a kid, that stuff would have had me snoring in five minutes. (I know the politics heavy Babylon 5 always put me to sleep when it wasn't scaring the crap out of me.) But now, I want to know MOAR!

[Ha-Hee Prime]

Can we maybe have this open for a while... like, till after Christmas? It's an interesting chapter, but I HAZ NO TIEM!!!

PS -- Hear, hear, to what Ridel said about TF politics being interesting now as adults.

[Coraxonyx]

Primey,

I'm not closing any of these any time soon, but I will wait until after X-mas to post on "OP in Therapy". I have a LOT to say about that chapter, but it can wait.

[Darth Krande]

How comes I only found this topic now?


It is very very interesting, and thank you for posting it! I mean, all of them are interesting but this is extra....

May I start with something personal? I have that OP knockoff figure. When I bought it at the fleamarket, it was nothing but a piece of cheap plastic. I put my soul in it. Honestly. Whenever I touched that figure, I had Prime in mind, the way he looked, the way he behaved, the way he made decisions, the way I wanted to see him. The way I saw him. And I added my point of view into that figure, to make it as close to Optimus as possible. In a sunny afternoon, I finished that figure.
So far, that night was the one and only that I dreamed with a Transformer. In my dream, I was walking on Optimus Prime's body, watching him coming back to life. He was still dizzy a bit after being dead, and he was very thankful to me for being there with him when he came back. He admitted that he might have died too many times, but he seemed to accept this as his fate.
I usually don't remember my dreams but I still remember this one. He was so beatiful, so majestic. His voice. His living metal body, his blue helmet, exactly G1 shape but not-at-all cartoonish material. His unmistakeable Peter Cullen voice.

After waking up, I knew it was a gift. A reward, for adding my little two-pence into the great think that lives in our mind of Optimus Prime. He lives in all of us. We all carry a part of him in our mind, and this is how Optimus Prime lives among us. And he is not the only one.

Completely out of topic (?) but I think that is also what religion is about: those who believe in God and keep Him in mind (also literally....) and turn to God in their mind/hearth/soul make their own share of God stronger, and the more people believe in Him and turn to Him, and also the stronger we believe in Him, makes God as powerful as He is. If we turn away from Him, He gets less and less chance to help our lives. But He will never give up on us. Yes, that is what I believe in.

Now, the questions:

Mental age: sure! Things happen to them, things can change them. They can change their points of view. I even say there's a type of behaviour that is the Transformer equivalent if "childish": selfish, self-assured, not yet able to respect anybody else. I think it is best seen on Grimlock and Wheelie. Not to bring up Autobot examples all the time: isn't it always the new Decepticons who can not be stopped because nobody knows what their limits are? And once they have one weakness found, the whole behaviour changes. They are no longer invincible, and (somewhere deep in the soul) even they might know it. So do their enemies.

Megatron and death: He got used to the one who DESTROYS, and it is completely unacceptable for him to BE DESTROYED. Also: he is the Leader of the Decepticons! Once he is killed, he would no longer be. Starscream would take his place. We know how much Megatron cannot accept that. (Not to talk about Galvatron. Megs was somewhat patient with Starscream, accepting him the way he was. Also, Megs was reasonable and willing to take others in consideration. He made plans including the reactions of his enemies, something Galvatron was not capable of.)
Let us be honest, Megatron had a good reason to be afraid to die. On the other hand, Optimus's death is always a relief, a well-deserved rest after fighting for all that he believes in. And he believes in other Autobots to continue his work. With all that considered, I think he has less reason to be afraid to die.

Heaven: something that you deserve to reach and unite with. It is the mirror of your soul, and what feelings you bring inside them. What you cause during your life. If you make everybody happy around you, that is what you will get back as a reward. In your afterlife, and maybe even before that. You don't have to die to face the consequences of your actions, but when you die, you will face all the consequences of all your actions. Personally, I think penance has a very important role here; whether you are really able to face and regret what you've done.
With all this, Heaven must be something really personal. No "TF heaven" "Christian Heaven" etc and you cannot end up in the wrong heaven just like that. One of my favourite chapters in the Holy Bible is when the Apostoles go out preaching after Pentecost and every person who listens to them, can hear them in their own language. How can you say Peter was talking in Aramian or Herbrew or Latin or Greek or whatever? It didn't matter at all, the result was the same for everybody: they understood it as their (first) language. Now, how could two souls not get the same heaven, as their own religions'?

[Coraxonyx]

Darth,

Thanks so much for your thoughtful responses to this topic. I'm afraid I've been a bit distracted lately, but I hope to get back to writing more of these up soon.

Our own Prime is a little nonplussed by the type of attention her chosen character attracts, but I think your personal anecdote makes sense to a lot of us. Prime occupies a space in our heads and hearts. Maybe if we were of another generation, or a different inclination, then we'd have Roland or King Arthur or someone else in that space. But Prime's our icon and we admire him and desparately WANT him to be real.

I love your idea about mental ages and Decepticons. It makes a ton of sense that one of the first things they figure out is that they aren't invincible. I'd love to see someone's fan fiction treatment of that idea.

I think you have a good point about Megatron. It's part of his controlling nature to want to be the one who brings others to destruction, but he can't face it for himself. In a lot of ways, Galvatron is Megs with all restraint gone and the very first thing he does is destroy Starscream. Granted, this was partially to regain control of the Decepticons, but as he didn't use them for much in the rest of TF:TM, that is a task that could have waited until after the Unicron business was resolved.

I, too, like to think that each person's experience of heaven is going to be tailored to their own experience and personality. But does that also mean that heaven is a solitary experience? I think that would be unutterably sad. I am hoping that heaven will be our one true chance to genuinely know each other with love.

Anyway, good thoughts, Darth! Keep 'em coming.

[Darth Krande]

Originally Posted by Coraxonyx

I love your idea about mental ages and Decepticons. It makes a ton of sense that one of the first things they figure out is that they aren't invincible. I'd love to see someone's fan fiction treatment of that idea.

I think the original cartoon has it more often than any fanfic could ever I don't know anything about the comics, on the other hand....

In a lot of ways, Galvatron is Megs with all restraint gone and the very first thing he does is destroy Starscream. Granted, this was partially to regain control of the Decepticons, but as he didn't use them for much in the rest of TF:TM, that is a task that could have waited until after the Unicron business was resolved.

In other words, Galvatron did entirely the opposite of what Megatron used to do. There's a lot of speculation why, but Megs left Starscream alive during the first and second seasons, that is completely the opposite of Galvatron's act. Therefore, I say the "real", the "original" Megatron died just as many other characters did. And, unlike Optimus, he hardly ever* came back.

* at the end of Return of Optimus Prime, he behaves almost like Megatron. Megs was very cooperative whenever it came to a mutual interest, helping and accepting help from Autobots more than once. That's what made him unique and special among all those other cartoon villians. Galvatron only agreed to help Prime because he was hoping for the metal they were after while Megs would have waited till Optimus solves the hate plague problem.

I, too, like to think that each person's experience of heaven is going to be tailored to their own experience and personality. But does that also mean that heaven is a solitary experience? I think that would be unutterably sad.

I don't think so. First of all, Heaven is something good, right? It cannot be something (like loneliness) you don't want. Rather, you will see it from your own and unique point of view, you will find things that YOU consider to be good. Other people will find what THEY consider to be good, but that doesn't mean that they wouldn't find each other.

I am hoping that heaven will be our one true chance to genuinely know each other with love.

Awesomeness.